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Post by lightspvp on Apr 26, 2011 11:14:15 GMT -5
Regardless of what Will A wants, "casual league" decks are too easy to "shut down" for there to be a fair ban list. Dwarf deck can't handle flying creatures, so flying creatures shuts dwarves down. It would be illogical to ban all flying creatures just to appease casual decks.
The only reason anyone would want a banlist is so that every person in a game would have a fair chance of winning. (There is no nonretarded reason for why anyone would want a change of rules in any game without winning at least partly in mind. Write fanfiction if playing a game is too difficult because a goal of winning is generally a major part in any game no matter what type). Banning any card that casual decks can't handle is just a task that would turn the game for the worse.
Play decks with 0 creature removal, 0 artifact removal, 0 counters, 0 enchantment removal, 0 answers if you want, but don't expect to win then complain about people having cards you don't have answers to.
If you really want to always have the 3+ hour games that I see you have and you really don't care about winning as much as you say you don't, simply remove all life totals and play until you get bored. There, your "game" is fixed.
btw @ previous example about BSC: tinker is on official banlist, french banlist, and mtgs banlist. There are faster and more consistent combos. Ban hermit druid, every card with storm, and every card that has an interaction with another card? (actually banning hermit druid would be much more relevant than banning anything else)
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Post by seeker on Apr 26, 2011 18:51:26 GMT -5
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 26, 2011 19:03:41 GMT -5
^very good read. I think I've seen that a few times while I was transitioning out of pve to pvp in wow.
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Kiki
Will A
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Posts: 1,309
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Post by Kiki on Apr 27, 2011 9:33:23 GMT -5
If I can stop every threat of theirs, then they have denied me the fun of making relevant game play decisions. I'm pretty sure that was in my previous post. So if you control the game and stop every threat anyone else plays, then not only are you not having fun, but it's THEIR fault you're not having fun? I think I see the problem here. If the only threat in your deck is your general and it gets arrested and you have no way of killing it or arrest-- yes, that is sort of your fault.
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Kino
Member
Will
OMIGOSHOMIGOSHOMIGOSHOMIGOSH OMIGOSHOMIGOSHOMIGOSHOMIGOSH
Posts: 1,351
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Post by Kino on Apr 27, 2011 10:07:49 GMT -5
After reading through a decent amount of those articles, I have to say, some are considerably more valuable than others. One thing he is missing in his articles is the psychology of reward structures. He also defines games far too narrowly. It's likely due to the fact that he's mostly talking about 1 on 1 games like Street Fighter, which he uses frequently in examples, and most of his beliefs are built around tournament play. He also operates under the incorrect assumption that all players want to and should spend time becoming as good at a game as possible. He's missing something that most gamers and game enthusiasts having been missing from the dawn of modern gaming, and that the games industry is only beginning to understand: Casual. Sorry to say, guys, but casual is the future of gaming and we're going to have to deal with it.
Most of his mechanical stuff is sound, as is the article about banning.
By the way, Lights, I have no idea who you are in real life, which makes your comments hard to put into context. Who are you?
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DazBoot
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Post by DazBoot on Apr 27, 2011 10:42:28 GMT -5
I've posted on the other thread, and the same idea needs to apply here. Please keep in mind the reason for this thread is to give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback in order to make club a better place to play. This is starting to become attacks against other players, not trying to find ways to make the format better.
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Post by tehwerr on Apr 27, 2011 12:03:21 GMT -5
(he's Kevin choi (a freshman)(sorry if I spelled your name wrong))
I have to say this right now: WE ARE DOING THIS ALL WRONG we should be going about this very differently. the last time the frowned upon list has been updated was like what? kamigawa? with the power creep the way it is I find it very unlikely that there has been no cards since then which are degrading to the FUN of casual play (note not the fairness) I think the most valid thing to do is to say if you want to play competitively with EDH then go ahead. the frowned rule has no effect on you because in competitive play who cares what your opponent thinks. however I do think for those who are thinking about their opponents. there are cards that I think both side would feel better about if they both did not have to worry about playing against. you guys have relentlessly blamed me and the other casual players for hating too many cards or not liking removal in any way shape or form this is BULLSHIT and I would prefer if you did not make jokes about it because I take personal offence to it. let me make this clear: the list of cards that I think should be updated on the frowned upon/banned list maybe consists of 3 cards and then about 5 other cards that I would consider. getting back to my main point I think we are just going about this all wrong. I know each person has there own opinion so I think the best way to go about this is blindly.
If each of you who cared were to PM me a list of the cards you want banned/unbanned or frowned/unfrowned then I could compile them and bring the common radicals to the table for individual evaluation. just so that we have some specific discussion points because otherwise we will get no where (also If one of the officers think that this should not be conducted this way or would rather do this themselves do not hesitate to tell me and I will stop)
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 27, 2011 12:09:45 GMT -5
(he's Kevin choi (a freshman)(sorry if I spelled your name wrong)) I have to say this right now: WE ARE DOING THIS ALL WRONG we should be going about this very differently. the last time the frowned upon list has been updated was like what? kamigawa? banlist: emrakul: rise of the eldrazi. I suggest reading the article on banning cards listed above. www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.htmlThis is pretty much the consensus on every other mtg forum I visit as well. If you only have 3 to 8 cards to consider adding to a banlist, just list them and we can discuss why or why not they should be banned/frowned upon.
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Post by tehwerr on Apr 27, 2011 12:12:15 GMT -5
note: the club's frowned upon list is a separate entity from the internet wide tournament EDH banned list.
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 27, 2011 12:13:07 GMT -5
note: the club's frowned upon list is a separate entity from the internet wide tournament EDH banned list. Link to club-only banlist please. AFAIK we generally use the general edh banlist. I don't think I've seen Emrakul in edh at rpi. v
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Post by massimiliano on Apr 27, 2011 12:13:38 GMT -5
(he's Kevin choi (a freshman)(sorry if I spelled your name wrong)) I have to say this right now: WE ARE DOING THIS ALL WRONG we should be going about this very differently. the last time the frowned upon list has been updated was like what? kamigawa? with the power creep the way it is I find it very unlikely that there has been no cards since then which are degrading to the FUN of casual play (note not the fairness) I think the most valid thing to do is to say if you want to play competitively with EDH then go ahead. the frowned rule has no effect on you because in competitive play who cares what your opponent thinks. however I do think for those who are thinking about their opponents. there are cards that I think both side would feel better about if they both did not have to worry about playing against. you guys have relentlessly blamed me and the other casual players for hating too many cards or not liking removal in any way shape or form this is BULLSHIT and I would prefer if you did not make jokes about it because I take personal offence to it. let me make this clear: the list of cards that I think should be updated on the frowned upon/banned list maybe consists of 3 cards and then about 5 other cards that I would consider. getting back to my main point I think we are just going about this all wrong. I know each person has there own opinion so I think the best way to go about this is blindly. If each of you who cared were to PM me a list of the cards you want banned/unbanned or frowned/unfrowned then I could compile them and bring the common radicals to the table for individual evaluation. just so that we have some specific discussion points because otherwise we will get no where (also If one of the officers think that this should not be conducted this way or would rather do this themselves do not hesitate to tell me and I will stop) The whole frowned upon rule seems to be going right over peoples' heads. It's not a specific list of cards its cards that YOU YOURSELF do not wish to play with, it just so happens that multiple people looked at Kokusho and said they didn't want to play against it in multiplayer. There may be other cards which evoke that same feeling of loathing, so state that. If you and the people you play with cannot come to a reasonable agreement then don't play magic with each other. If you are the only people willing to play magic then it is your own damn fault. Suck it up and interact, don't just come running to another group of people to try and get them to back you up.
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Mike
Mike
Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer: Mike; Draft Master
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Post by Mike on Apr 27, 2011 12:21:59 GMT -5
These opinions are directed towards multiplayer play.
Suggested frown #1: Exsanguinate
Reasons: 1) Being in black, it is extremely easy to end the game by assembling Urborg + Coffers 2) Being a sorcery, players cannot interact with it outside of counterspells, nor see it coming..
Suggested frown #2: Blightsteel Colossus
Reasons: 1) Being an easily castable, 1-hit KO indestructible creature, it sometimes surprise-ends games for players who thought they had a commanding position. Encourages players to play more defensively with their potential blockers, leading to more dragged-out games. 2) Bribery and Acquire become annoyingly good.
Note: would not be an issue if poison counters were scaled to EDH.
Suggested frown #3: Ulamog, the Big Guy
Reasons: 1) Can only be dealt with by a narrow range of cards. Even if you include 3-4 answers to him, in EDH you may just not draw them. 2) He hoses one player at a time, which is frustrating in a game of 4-5 players that may last for a lot longer.
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 27, 2011 12:25:09 GMT -5
I can back Ulamog simply due to Annihilator, but BSC as stated before takes an entire turn to attack without an additional haste effect and 2 toughness can stop it. Not to mention, they both put a huge target on whoever casts them and both lack vigilance without additional effects, so playing them would be at the casters' own risk. BSC is also more vulnerable to removal than Ulamog due to artifact typing. I play neither simply because they would make my decks worse by making them slower/dead draws/bigger targets/easy bribery/acquire.
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Mike
Mike
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Post by Mike on Apr 27, 2011 12:30:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the bribery/acquire reasoning to frown upon BSC
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DazBoot
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Post by DazBoot on Apr 27, 2011 12:30:29 GMT -5
I have to agree with Max on this one. The "frowned upon" is not an official list. It also is not out of date, it is a dynamic part of club. Kokusho was just the last time that we straight up said "we will agree that if someone plays this card, then it leads to such a huge swing in their favor that we will target them first because that is the only way to overcome it". There have been a lot of discussions since then about cards that are "unfun" in order to raise awareness. A couple of cards (example: Vicious Shadows, Exanguinate) have even been discussed as being added to the "we should avoid playing these" list.
Power creep is irrelevant, as everyone has access to the powered cards, so answers (should in theory) match threats. The problems aren't generally over powered cards, they are cards that are just not well designed (or too well designed) for multi-player.
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 27, 2011 12:36:43 GMT -5
Kozilek, Progenitus, Praetors, Akroma, angel of wrath, It that betrays, Dragon Tyrant, Darksteel Colossus, Hypnox, artisan of kozilek, darksteel forge, primeval titan, iona, linvala, inkwell leviathan, reaper king, time stretch, time warp, genesis wave Condemn, hinder, spin into myth, hallowed burial, null rod, sol ring, mana crypt hermit druid, power artifact, rings of brighthearth, basalt monolith, grim monolith, Oona queen of the fae, Drana Kalastria Highborn, deserted temple, cabal coffers Maze of Ith, Kor Haven, Jace the mind sculptor mind twist, mind shatter, bloodhusk ritualist, yawgmoth's will, sundering titan, candelabra of tawnos, mindslaver, serra ascendent, necropotence, force of will, tooth and nail, genesis, sorrin markov, legacy weapon, mistmeadow witch, desolation angel, vicious shadows, stalking vengeance, sensei's divining top, identity crisis, memnarch, palinchron, capsize, magister sphinx, rhystic study, grand arbiter augustin, wasteland, tectonic edge, dustbowl, bribery, acquire, high tide, crucible of worlds, strip mine, original dual lands, terastodon, avenger of zendikar, azami, erayo, armaggedon, lightning greaves, worship,
These are all cards I've seen people complain about. I'll add reasoning later; have to get to class.
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DazBoot
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Post by DazBoot on Apr 27, 2011 12:37:41 GMT -5
Sorry for the double post, but those happened while I was typing, and this is a different topic so I'll make a new post to address it.
Thank you Mike for laying it out and discussing it like that. This is how we should be talking about things, not saying "Removal is too good" or "Some cards make the game unfun". Be specific, back your arguments, and don't get personally attached. This is about making the game more fun, not less.
I have to agree with you Mike on Exanguinate, it has been proven that "Big Mana" decks are already very good, and this card makes the kill just instantly. If Comet Storm was discussed as being "too good" this is a very similar effect plus the addition that once they cast it, even if they aren't winning then they are almost unkillable for a while. I think it deserves a look at for a "casual frown".
Of the Ulamog/Blightsteel debate. I agree that Ulamog is the biggest problem of the two. Like you said, unless you instaltly have the answer, he is at least a 5 for 1, and 4 of that MUST be directed at a single player. Taking large amount of annihilator is never fun, and while I think he would be okay in a 1v1 format (if we continue that) as a multiplayer format he has some problems.
Kevin's arguments about BSC are entirely valid, and I think adjusting poison is a valid option. The down side of this is it makes other poison cards much worse. It's something that would certainly need more discussion.
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 27, 2011 12:40:46 GMT -5
Not to mention if BSC doesn't immediately kill someone (if it isn't already dealt with already) by way of that person having a creature with toughness 2+ or any sort of fog/debuff effect, and it is later removed, it has effectively done 0 damage and put a huge target on its caster.
I've killed more people with a 21+ drana swing by simply draining life than I've seen BSCs actually do anything.
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DazBoot
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Post by DazBoot on Apr 27, 2011 12:47:13 GMT -5
I guess that's true. The point that "either you should have an answer" or "have blockers until you get an answer" is fair. Granted, our metagame plays very low creatures, but that's our metagame's fault, not BSC's....
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 27, 2011 13:27:35 GMT -5
ban ban ban all these cards to infinity
yosei- I've been locked down by will anderson with yosei+chainer and honestly few yosei as more annoying than kokusho. Yosei + chainer + sac engine = lolwut? entire board is tapped.
altar of dementia- Too many easy combos can mill everyone's entire decks with this card. Even Bray Ben's teysa deck can generate infinite creature tokens that remake themselves (teysa + darkest hour + sac engine for anyone who doesn't know). Altar of dementia being the sac engine, everyone is infinitely milled.
chainer - recurring recursion. Similar to recurring nightmare. Keeps bringing the most powerful creatures out
Kozilek- Same reasons as ulamog. Ridiculous card advantage.
Progenitus-Protection from everything. I know judge Will's deck runs basically 100% lockdown board wipes and spiffy lands like Maze of Ith and manlands to beat people down. Progenitus is the backup plan to crush everyone. Protection from everything? Seriously would rather play against ulamog.
Praetors- General consesus from what I've heard is that the praetors are retardedly unfun for edh especially the blue and green one.
Debtors' Knell - Black Praetor but better; seriously wtf?
Akroma, angel of wrath- Protection from black and red; hoses certain decks that don't have answers. Even strictly noncasual decks that are running monored/black can't handle this creature
It that betrays- eldrazi. With the amount of saccing that goes on in multiplayer games, this card is easily abusable.
All is Dust - Ridiculously powerful board wipe. See combination with above.
Dragon Tyrant- This and scion of the ur dragon makes it sub in for 2 mana and then swing for 22 double strike lolwut?
Eldrazi Conscription - Eldrazi. Annihilator. Ridiculously powerful
Rafiq of the Many - Powerful general in casual and can build a deck that can easily abuse double strike exalted. Phyrexian Hydra new mvp wut? Putrefax? Steel of the Godhead?
Darksteel Colossus- Just as hard to remove as BSC.Costs less mana even.
artisan of kozilek-eldrazi, annihilator, recursion
darksteel forge-ridiculously powerful in multiplayer. Not many people in rpi magic club even run artifact removal, but this just makes winning too easy.
primeval titan-this has received a ton of complaits. Speaking personally with Will Cooper, he has said this is the first card he would ban. This can fetch cabal coffers and maze of ith. It makes ridiculous card advantage and lands if left alone.
Consecrated Sphinx- i see this as even more powerful than primeval in some ways if left untouched
iona- can screw one person over if that person is not running artifact removal/more than one color/disruption ie counters/discard
linvala-screws over decks that are based on activated abilities
inkwell leviathan- huge creature, trample shroud; harder to remove than some eldrazi and BSC
time stretch, time warp-extra turns wtf
genesis wave - Green version of exsanguinate. Genesis waving for 30 can be even more ridiculous, and is often more ridiculous than exsanguinating for 30. Not only this, green has much more mana ramp and can pull this off faster.
Condemn, hinder, spin into myth, hallowed burial-fateseals generals. I know judge will is completely opposed to any fatesealing of generals. I would support this because this would make my skithiryx deck just so much stronger
null rod-people have said this is unfun and it screws over many decks, particularly ones that rely on artifacts
sol ring, mana crypt - it seems these are the epitome of imbalanced at rpi magic club. If someone wants to make their deck supposedly weaker, they take out these cards.
hermit druid- combo piece; easy consistent wins
power artifact, rings of brighthearth, basalt monolith, grim monolith- combo pieces; easy infinite mana
Oona queen of the fae, Drana Kalastria Highborn, other generals with abilities that are good in casual and sometimes competitive - when games last 50 turns, having tons of mana available make generals with mana-sinks ridiculous
deserted temple, cabal coffers- ridiculous mana, combo pieces esp with rings of brighthearth
Maze of Ith, Kor Haven, Jace the mind sculptor - These are not available to many people and are ridiculous cards for multiplayer.
Eternal Witness, Reveillark, saffi, karmic guide, sun titan - Combo pieces; favorite combo pieces for Will anderson.
mind twist, mind shatter, bloodhusk ritualist- Discard. People at rpi magic club hate discard
yawgmoth's will -overpowered
sundering titan,anything with land d - judge will especially hates these cards especially since he usually runs expensive dual lands/nonbasics that have dual land types + the advantage of running 5 color.
candelabra of tawnos- ridiculously powerful, not many can afford
mindslaver, serra ascendent, kitsune ascendent- banned in french list; mind slaver makes the game unfun for the person being mindslavered, serra asvendent and kitsune ascendent abuse 40 life start. 6/6 flying lifelink turn 1 for 1 mana. Prevent all damage done to it. derpherp
necropotence- ridiculous card advantage in black
force of will- not everyone can afford; best counterspell. counterspells are generally unfun in multiplayer.
tooth and nail, genesis, defense of the heart - getting those huge overpowered creatures out. then over and over.
sorrin markov-to 10 life
legacy weapon-recurring vindicate.
vindicate - expensive, see above;
mistmeadow witch- I've been told mistmeadow witch is overpowered.
desolation angel-land d; see above
vicious shadows, stalking vengeance- overpowered in multiplayer; have seen people complain about them and suggest it to banlist.
sensei's divining top- expensive, very big advantage
identity crisis-discard
memnarch,-abuses lots/infinite mana
palinchron,hightide - easy infinite mana
capsize- recurring bounce = lockdown = not fun
magister sphinx -sorrin markov
rhystic study-consecrated sphinx
grand arbiter augustin, frozen orb, wasteland, tectonic edge, dustbowl, strip mine- limiting peoples' resources is unfun
bribery, acquire- steals ridiculously powerful creatures for cheap. Sphinx ambassador could be on this list, but it has to hit. It can be added.
crucible of worlds- people I've talked to have said this card is ridiculously unfun to play against especially with access to fetchlands/stripmine
original dual lands, fetchlands - not everyone can afford; big advantage for mana fixing especially in multicolor decks
terastodon-destruction of permanents, any type makes this very powerful. Equivalent of instant annihilator, ulamog come into play effect x 3
azami, vendillion clique, zur, gaddock teeg, sharuum, arcum, doran, scion, horde of notions, teysa, karn, Jhoira, azusa, sisay, kikijiki, - powerful generals.
erayo- no one can say this card is fun.
worship - many decks cannot answer this.
Hypergenesis - cascade into hypergenesis. Play all the broken creatures for free.
Demonic Tutor/Diabolic Tutor/Vampiric tutor/Grim tutor/Imperial Seal/others - can turn into any card you want in your deck any time you need them. arguably are some of the most powerful cards and generally gives black a huge advantage.
Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon - Have heard people say these are unfair especially when they are running expensive nonbasic lands
Angel of Despair - vindicating angel. Can blink for recurring vindicates.
Insurrection - Red version of exsanguinate/genesis save/time stretch
Mind over Matter - Ridiculously powerful
Forbid - In blue with its ridiculous card draw, one person is locked down for the rest of the game.
Survival of the Fittest - Banned in legacy. Still powerful in edh. turns any creature into any creature. Basically an infinite tutor
Mana Drain, moat - inaccessible
Hokori, Dust Drinker - slows down the game, limits resources, makes the game overall less fun
Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, Bojuka Bog, Nihil Spellbomb, Withered Wretch, Others - hoses some decks' resources; makes the game unfun for the person whose deck is based on recursion (aka james's glissa deck, steve's recursion deck, my spirit deck, others)
Tangle Wire - Limits resources
Obliterate, Jokulhaups, Apocalypse, Decree of Annihilation - land hate
others: Grave Pact Land Tax Skullclamp Oath of Druids Earthgcraft Shahrazad < seriously wtf Felidar Sovereign, Mortal Combat, Test of Endurance, Helix Pinnacle Rite of Replication lord of extinction - retarded in late game edh Akroma's Memorial
Kezzerdrix, Vizzerdrix, Mon's Goblin Raiders - Just because.
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Post by tehwerr on Apr 27, 2011 14:49:01 GMT -5
are you really submitting all of these to the discussion table or are you trying to prove a point.
Praetors: I would like to see how they play out a little before frowning on them.
Debtors' Knell- was one of the cards that I have seen be retarded be I don't think it really needs a ban.
It that betrays- honestly almost no one runs this so I can't really vouch for how degenerate it is.
Darksteel Colossus- I just disagree with you on this one. he doesn't one hit people and look how badass he is.
artisan of kozilek- is too weak of an eldrazi to really be a problem
primeval titan- as you mentioned this is my first card on my agenda
Consecrated Sphinx- I hate this card but that's just a personal vendetta.
iona- another (probably second) on my agenda
linvala- I have no problem with this. there is a certain amount you should expect a deck to be able to deal with a 3/4 flyer without the help of creatures activated abilities in within that.
time stretch, time warp- extra turns are stupidly powerful but don't deserve a ban
Condemn, hinder, spin into myth, hallowed burial- at a certain point you should be able to put a permanent seal on really meddlesome generals
null rod- I'm fine with null rod
sol ring, mana crypt - I agree here but maybe the only one that really needs baning outright is mana crypt.
power artifact, rings of brighthearth, basalt monolith, grim monolith- people are alowed to go inifinte, but they should know that the game might just go on without them afterward.
sundering titan,anything with land d - know this there should be something that can deal with lands.
mindslaver- depending on the board state and who is doing it can be awsome
capsize- what is unfun about this card is the part where it gives the holder and exuse to lay back and not interact.
rhystic study- is already frowned upon
bribery, acquire- very game balancing makes people think twice about putting crazy stuff in their deck
crucible of worlds- I agree with you here too
original dual lands, fetchlands - basically the best mana fixing ever, a crutch for those who don't know how to build without them/ like expensive cards. but really it's just a vendetta of mine again. should probably not be banned.
terastodon- helps green stay as a legit color. quite fair in muliyplayer
kikijiki, azami- I understand are already frowned upon. zur- I frown upon him
Demonic Tutor/Diabolic Tutor/Vampiric tutor/Grim tutor/Imperial Seal/others - game balancing, one of the recourses that black gets.
Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon - are you joking? thats the reason it should not be banned. it's hilarious.
Insurrection- perhaps but I don't think this is that bad it does give red one of the edges it needs.
Forbid- eh I don't really like this card personally.
Hokori, Dust Drinker -NICK
Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, Bojuka Bog, Nihil Spellbomb, Withered Wretch- super duper game balancing.
Obliterate, Jokulhaups, Apocalypse, Decree of Annihilation - I understand excessive use of these is already frowned upon.
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Post by vultanphase on Apr 27, 2011 14:56:53 GMT -5
Alright, here's what I'm going to say.
If you can't build a deck that is both fun for you to play, and is reasonably fun to play against (be in the same game with), then you are a bad deck builder. Sure you can win every game - maybe you built a deck that can do that reliably. Good for you. Congratulations. Point proven. Now build something else.
I should be clear though. I'm not saying 'throttle your deck', and I'm not in favor of banning cards. The cards aren't the problem here. One time, we said "Hey, I think we could have better games if nobody plays Kokusho," and now that's being used as a starting point for this whole absurd drama. Use good cards. Use as many good cards as you want. Good cards are fun. Doing broken things can be entertaining. Please, PLEASE don't churn out a big list of "don't do"s, because everything has context.
Make a really good, really solid deck that doesn't spend the whole game pissing on everyone's parade, and do the cool things you want to do, just remember the best games are the ones where you sit down to it, all play to win, and all stand a pretty good chance of accomplishing it.
It's more dynamic, more interesting, and manages to piss fewer people off.
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Kiki
Will A
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Posts: 1,309
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Post by Kiki on Apr 27, 2011 14:57:36 GMT -5
since when are kiki-jiki or rhystic study frowned upon? I would call those cards awesome and fun.
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 27, 2011 15:03:49 GMT -5
@will: every person will have biased opinions. While you have a huge problem with primeval titan and no problem with null rod, I have no problem with primeval titan (playing mostly black I have easy removal/enslave) while I have a huge problem with null rod.
Kokusho is actually the most "unban this card" card on MTGS while sensei's top and sol ring are the most "ban this card" cards.
My biggest "beef" with this entire discussion is that there is even a discussion. I see the current official banlist sufficient and 99% of all other QQ about cards is just people crying about cards they don't like to play against. aka "This card is balanced because I like it. That card is imbalanced because it hurts my deck."
Banning every abusable card just isn't a viable option. As nice as primeval titan is, there are so many more ways to play powerful combos/cards than it, and banning everything that could possibly be powerful is simply a bad idea. My original drana deck used umbral mantle + magus of the coffers to generate infinite mana to drain and wing with an infinite/4 drana. This did not take much effort or money to put together. It was just an obvious win condition to put in my deck for 40 cents. Banning win conditions seems futile considering its so easy to make them.
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Post by tehwerr on Apr 27, 2011 15:12:39 GMT -5
the only cards that I really think degrade play as much as Kokusho are primeval titan and Exsanguinate. titan because it turns games into the primeval titan game. and Exsanguinate because I have not seen people have fun doing what it does in multiplayer. thirdly I don't think Iona is considered very fun in multiplayer nobody likes just bing unable to play spells. none of these I want to not see because they are too strong. I don't want to see this because they are degrading to gameplay.
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 27, 2011 15:15:09 GMT -5
Genesis Wave for 30 can hurt just as much as exsanguinate for 30, not to mention comet storm effects. You might not view it this way because you generally play a white deck full of board wipes, but as I've said before, everyone has a bias of what is able to be dealt with and what is not.
For example, judge Will sees Price of Progress as completely unfair, while I would see it as fine. He could see a card I don't see as fair and claim it fair as well. The banlist idea is very hard to compile without bias. The only cards worth banning imo are sol ring and sensei's top if anything were to be banned.
Example: I hate null rod/fateseal effects/graveyard hate/ensnaring bridge more than primeval titan, sundering titan, and crucible of worlds.
I will not stop anyone from playing these effects.
In other news:
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Post by tehwerr on Apr 27, 2011 15:38:30 GMT -5
once again it is not a matter of what is good. or more powerful. it's a matter of Exsanguinate either makes the caster win immediately against multiple opponents or it puts the user in an overwhelming life total advantage. it's not a matter of what can be dealt with and what is more powerful. and it's not a matter of what I personally can deal with in my decks.
also I would be the last person you'll see trying to take the skill out of the game for noobs. also who are you quoting? also fool's mate WTF? (Fool's mate is really easy to spot and counter)
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 27, 2011 15:42:30 GMT -5
once again it is not a matter of what is good. or more powerful. it's a matter of Exsanguinate either makes the caster win immediately against multiple opponents or it puts the user in an overwhelming life total advantage. it's not a matter of what can be dealt with and what is more powerful. Null rod effectively makes me unable to do anything in skithiryx deck. Example from yesterday: T1: Ancient Tomb, Everflowing Chalice, Expedition Map T2: Swamp, Coalition Relic, Coldsteel Heart T2: Will A. plays null rod T3: Swamp. Okay then. I have a sphere of the suns and a shuko. gg. Comet storm can do the same thing as exsanguinate. Hell, with infinite mana, you can fireball for the win. Also, reread your post. What you're essentially saying is that exsanguinate is good for winning games. But it isn't too good. What?
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Post by tehwerr on Apr 27, 2011 15:47:27 GMT -5
no I'm saying that it isn't something I see people have fun with. this concerns me. also comet storm costs 4-5 more mana and does not give you the life. (not saying that it's not powerful)
also I you don't think cards should be banned why kokusho? when it dies it's only Exsanguinate for 5 that's something that is 7 mana.
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Post by lightspvp on Apr 27, 2011 15:51:28 GMT -5
It's recursive exsanguinate. It is generally easy to recur a creature through various means (recurring nightmare for instance, especially in black) than to recur exsanguinate. Even then, most posts I've read from people from various other MTG forums say kokusho is the most unbanworthy card on the ban list.
I have no fun vs null rod. This does not mean I should stop people from playing it.
Life gain + hurricane effect ban?
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